In this episode of Condo Artist: the Other Side of Real Estate, hosts Uri Vaknin and Shahn Douglas continue last week’s conversation with Justin Cohen, Executive Vice President of award-winning marketing agency, REQ. Justin expands on his idea that “digital marketing” today should simply be called marketing, and offers the one key to success that no advertiser can afford to overlook. He also discusses:
To hear Justin, Uri and Shahn’s initial discussion on reaching and attracting today’s digitally-forward condominium buyers, listen to The Art of Digital Marketing – Part 1.
Justin Cohen 00:00
We’re all watching some form of thing, whenever we used to binge, on an app right now that has ads, or streamed on our TV in a way that has ads, and that’s where our ads show up now and that’s where the expense goes. Our $10 and $20 and $50,000 line items monthly and media plans these days are to the Pandora’s and the Spotify’s and the Facebook’s.
Uri Vaknin 00:36
Welcome to another episode of Condo Artist: The Other Side of Real Estate. I’m your host, Uri Vaknin, a condo sales strategist who has developed and sold out 1000s of condos in Atlanta, Las Vegas, Florida, Detroit, Texas, Nashville, and all across the United States. Each week I, along with my co host and colleagues, Mark Bunton and Shahn Douglas, will bring you the latest insight, best practices and sales techniques to sell out more condos faster, no matter the market. At times, we will delve into architecture, design and urban planning as they pertain to condos and condo living. I am an admitted podcast junkie. But in our search for podcasts about condos, we all realize that there really weren’t any out there. Throughout the series, you will get to know more about me, Shahn and Mark and our 53 years of combined experience in the world of condos. One of the things that has become glaringly obvious to us is that most people, including real estate agents, buyers, architects, and even condo developers don’t fully understand condos. This podcast will pull back the curtain on the world of condos. Welcome to The Art of Digital Marketing – Part 2 with our special guest, Justin Cohen, Executive Vice President of REQ. Last week, we discussed how condo developers can get started in the digital marketing space, where homebuyers shop online today, and the different types of media and how they work together. Let’s pick up the conversation with best practices on communicating with leads.
Shahn Douglas 02:16
We’ve all discussed this the most effective way, once we do have a lead, how do we how do we communicate with them from the sales perspective? You know, what’s the best way? How quickly? What are some best practices?
Justin Cohen 02:29
There’s really only one answer. And that’s however they want to be communicated to. And the answer was the same answer when I started doing this in 2006. And we were spending hundreds of 1000s a month to create leads going to salespeople who I had to sit in meetings with just like so many of us do. And talk about those leads. How do people want to be communicated? You know, what we do know in 2021 is that there is that moment when people outreach where whether it’s text, phone or email, and I would argue text is probably a platform most of us should try to embrace as quickly as possible with prospects. Because think about it, you know, those out there, whether you’re agent or title or otherwise, once you’ve got the relationship going with someone, how are you having most of the communication? In most real estate transaction, it’s a text lifeline. You know, maybe within an agency, it might be on a slack or another thing, but when you’re talking about talking to the customer, it usually moves to text. So one thing I would say is, if people are looking to move to that on the phone or text path get there, I would say that email has been a crutch since 2006. Now granted, people have long said email is dead. And it’s not, it’s still super critical and a key thing. But when someone’s into real estate, until you’re emailing back and forth about closing a deal, text and get on the phone and have passionate conversations about what is passionate stuff, which is the consideration of a real estate purchase, whether it’s to live in for vacation or investment and engage that way. It’s no different than a car. Think about how harassed you are by the car dealer. You go put your name as interested in the car could be 10 states away. Three people from that car company are texting you tomorrow. And you’re like, how do you have so many sales managers, and yet our real estate people trying to sell something that may have a price tag of 10 to 20, or often in the world I work in, 20 to 50 times as much as the car. We’re afraid to pick up the phone or text.
Shahn Douglas 04:18
that’s good point. I think everybody out there would appreciate you saying those things. And it is it is tough. What you know, I think we talked a little bit about this. But what would be an effective? You know, again, I think I’m trying to think of the people that maybe don’t have a good, healthy budget as we do. But you know, if you were limited what’s the most important thing,
Justin Cohen 04:39
the core core thing is have a niche and be represented on social, you know, if you can, if you’re not going to commit to have a blog, if you’re not going to maintain a website, if you can’t run ads, you have to pick a niche. Again, I don’t care what it is, you know, pick a niche and if it’s too broad, you know, narrow it down, and then social, start talking on social if you do it Take a quarter of the money you got from that deal and run social ads. If you do it even decently, you probably get the next deal that pays for the next month social ads. You know, if you’re bootstrapping, in the end, it comes down to targeting being special about something having some audience or persona or product in mind. And then using social define those people, you know, I’ll give you a kind of a free trick, you know, and it doesn’t cost money to build up your own social channel, if you can go out there and put yourself out there, get into other people’s channels, who are other developers, projects, or brokers or agents, and start responding to questions with better answers. And when people are communicating, asking about a neighborhood or a building or a side of a city, jump into the dialogue. Right, you know, Twitter’s another great place to do it. But I know some folks are more comfortable on Facebook. But at the core of today, you know, whether you’re 22, or you know, you just got your license at 54, a third career, it’s where the world is today. You know, that’s where people are spending their time your device doesn’t say, Oh, you used it half as much as last week. And if it did good for you, but for 99% of us, that device is saying you used it more than last week. So that’s where people are spending the time. That’s where people are looking at and thinking about real estate,
Uri Vaknin 06:10
which social platform would you recommend?
Justin Cohen 06:13
You know, I probably lean on the Facebook Instagram right now, you know, it’s a collective platform from a standpoint of communications and a standpoint of advertising because it is one big company. You know, I would certainly say that if your audience is on tik tok, and you have the ability to create tik tok content, get there it makes sense. The same could apply for snap the same could apply for a lot of things. You know, if you’re in commercial, get on LinkedIn and be a thought leader on LinkedIn. Right? You know, it’s all it’s all about where the people are. That’s why I said, figure out what your specialty is. And ideally, it’s a product and it’s an audience
Uri Vaknin 06:47
with going out to the other end of the scale. And let’s say you had the perfect budget, you’re doing a great condo, project, condo, project Condor community, or condo tower,
Justin Cohen 06:58
Uri the PTSD must be setting in.
Uri Vaknin 07:01
It is well, for listeners who don’t know we, we took off the week last week because I had a minor ski accident that led me to ski into surgery. So that is why I’m a little off today. That’s why I called it a condo project and not a condo community
Justin Cohen 07:18
so quick, the more you know, everybody, please ski safely for the rest of the ski season because we don’t want anyone else taken off the slopes.
Uri Vaknin 07:25
Exactly. And it was just it was a pure powder day fresh, beautiful powder. The sun was not out. And I could not tell that there was a mound of powder. And it was a simple tumble, and fractured my shoulder, dislocated my shoulder, stood up, barely popped it back in and skied intensely for two more days, though, that was pretty fun.
Justin Cohen 07:51
And I’ll ever question how hardy you are. I look forward to seeing you back on the slopes the first day they’ll let out.
Uri Vaknin 07:56
Yeah, exactly. But that’s not why these listeners are listening in. So let’s get back to the art of digital marketing. So you know, we have all types of listeners. And actually, we have listeners from all over the world, which is great, Singapore and London and Australia and Germany. But like, if you’re starting off on a new project, and you had a really good budget, give us what a balanced and kind of comprehensive digital marketing plan would include.
Justin Cohen 08:29
Sure, and you know, I think something that you’re probably alluding to, that’s been a big key to the success and the projects that we’ve worked on in the past is back to that balance of earned and paid. So you know, once you got your brand and your personas figured out, and you’re sitting there saying okay, I get a million dollar sellout budget for marketing or a $10 million, sell a budget, whatever it is, and you’re carving it up. A big key to success is the earned side, you can run all the ads you want. But if you don’t have the awesome whether it’s you know, 360s, fly-throughs, videos, you know, stories and testimonials, great content, great PR all that stuff that shows how awesome your project is to back up the bait, right, because the ads are just bait, you gotta have all the awesome stuff to back it up. You know, in general, I would say the right way to think about it is probably something in the vein of two thirds of your budget should be going to media, you know, paid things. And about a third of it should go toward paying your agency or agencies to do all of those services, create the content, do the PR do all those things that allow all the advertising to work. Now, the advertising and where it goes. And one of the reasons that we tend unless you’re in market selling to market, we tend to shy away from traditional mediums these days and do mostly digital is because all of our digital and audience targeting can happen for all of the TV and listening we do so whether you’re listening to podcasts, or you’re listening to TV on radio or Pandora, Spotify, Sirius XM Any of the connected radios or you’re watching, I won’t even begin to list the commercial connected TV apps that we all use, you know, you used to list Hulu and a few others. Now it’s infinity ways that we all are watching on our iPads and our TVs, and on the airplane and everywhere else. So a lot of dollars that back in the day might have gone if you’re already in market to TV, or in a pre COVID world to huge events. Now can go to once we’ve got those people in our funnel, like as we talked about, once we’ve got them cookies, or pixeled, or whatever Apple will let us do, which could be a topic for an entire nother podcast, as Apple is dramatically evolving what we can and can’t track as, as Google and Facebook. And Samsung for that matter. The money is going to get spent chasing the people now when they’re watching their whatever they’re watching, or listening to whatever they’re listening to what any of their devices, because that’s where we buy our ads. You know, we’re not just buying the ads, when you’re on Facebook, we’re buying the ads, when you’re watching whether it’s you know, Netflix as an events. We all know that. But whether it’s you know, our kids, or whether it’s our parents, we’re all watching some form of thing, whatever we used to binge on an app right now that has ads or streamed on our TV in a way that has ads. And that’s where our ads show up now. And that’s where the expense goes our 10 and 20 and $50,000 line items monthly and media plans these days are to the Pandora’s and the Spotify’s, and the Facebook’s and the Tik toks. You know, and it’s not a real estate example. But I think it helps people recognize how fast things are moving.
Uri Vaknin 11:38
Well, what’s interesting is Tik Tok is a funny thing. People talk about Tik Tok Tik, well, I don’t use it. And then I’m like, you might not use it. But I can assure you you’ve watched so many tik tok videos on your Instagram or whatever it might be.
Justin Cohen 11:52
And that’s where I’m going with the quick evolution in 2006. When we were first doing luxury real estate online, there were no Facebook ads because Facebook didn’t have ads. And it wasn’t that platform. When we started our agency in 2009. You know, social advertising was a very early concept and there wasn’t much there are 11 months ago 11 months ago this week, I was in tic toks office in New York the week before, literally the week before COVID broke out in New York. And I was in tic toks office in New York simply because it was my office in New York. We shared a floor in a We Work in Manhattan a year ago. And I went into tic toks office and I said hey, I have casino clients that want to advertise on Tick Tock but my really my immediate my team who buys media couldn’t get really responses from Tik Tok. That was March of 2020 11 months ago. Pretty much every casino I run ads for around the country is running on Tik Tok right now. How long did it take Facebook to off to figure out how to take our money? How long did it take Tik Tok? And I think that answers your question about how quickly and where. And I’m talking about casinos. Why would Tik Tok not take our money in their earliest months of marketing in March of 2020 11 months ago? Because tic Tok was for kids right? Suddenly, I don’t have a problem targeting my casino ads to regional and destination casinos to tik tok users all over the nation who are definitively over 21 because technology tells us they are welcome to the evolution of how fast Tik Tok became a place that we selling luxury real estate need to pay attention.
Shahn Douglas 13:24
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Justin Cohen 14:32
We’ll put a pin in the real estate side and you know, I will tend to go with you know, two brands and you know, I don’t need to explain much when I say them, but you know, Tesla and Lululemon tell us everything we need to know. Tesla and Lululemon tell us I know already. You’re wearing Lululemon It is beautiful. Is that is that from the spring catalog? Or is that an older piece
Uri Vaknin 14:52
it’s from the outlet store.
Justin Cohen 14:54
Oh geez. So you know I mean, I’ll give you a literal example. I was like, like Summerlin folk I was at Pilates two days ago. And my Pilates instructor like every Pilates instructor is pretty on the pulse of what’s coming out Lulu wise. And someone had come in a session before me wearing a piece she had never seen before. And because of how much she knows about product on their website in stores, she had trouble believing that there could be a Lululemon new piece that she didn’t know existed. That type of brand dedication tells you everything you need to know. And think about Tesla, it’s the same exact story. So understanding how brands connect with people and be the only option gets back to what we talked about with targeting and service. They love Lululemon because they’re treated great every time they go. It’s a fantastic place to be it’s a great interaction. And Tesla is a community among communities, right? You know how every Tesla owner is part of that club. So in the end, it’s about a feeling and experience, we get back to Lori’s question earlier, you know, what’s a pre sale? A pre sale is invisible space in the sky that I marketed you into spending 1000s of dollars for per foot?
Uri Vaknin 16:06
That’s pretty amazing.
Justin Cohen 16:08
Yeah, so our first project in Vegas in 2006, and seven sold in excess of $500 million worth of invisible condos in the sky, it had nearly $120 million in the bank cash deposits. and way more than half of the people had never come to the sales center, and did the entire transaction online. And that was 2006 and seven, were 14 years removed almost 15.
Uri Vaknin 16:35
Those were the days.
Shahn Douglas 16:37
Those were the days,
Justin Cohen 16:39
it tells us a little bit about what’s coming.
Shahn Douglas 16:41
Yeah, and I’m just gonna ask that what what do you think, you know, digital marketing is gonna look like this year, and in the future? Do you have any ideas of how online buying behaviors, changing What’s going on?
Justin Cohen 16:54
You know, the, the crystal ball is something that everyone you know, tends to look at, when it comes to digital and how people are going to interact, I would tell you probably the key is going to be the personalization. You know, it’s been it’s evolved from, like we said, If I wanted rich people in New York, I had to buy the online homepage of The Wall Street Journal or New York Times, you know, now, they could be hanging out in Montana, or Cabo. And I can target them because they’re rich, and from New York, anywhere they are. So you know, that evolution is gonna, I think evolve into the personalization thing. And it’s going to be a lot more about what we want to see how it is for us how it ties into our family, you know, think about that multigen family living, you know, with kind of the evolution of multigen family living, it’s going to be about seeing your family in that home. It’s going to be you know, we’re now all used to a few years ago, they’d say, well, you just, you know, you hold your phone up, and it shows the couch in your room, and we’d be like, What the hell are you talking about? Now, every one of us would like even on the target app, I believe you can see the end table next to your couch. So you know, you think about that integration. And suddenly, what would it be like seeing your dog, your family, your kids, your furniture? How much can digital? close the loop, if you will, for your imagination, so that you’re not imagining anymore? It’s Oh, that’s me living there? Oh, that’s me, you know, at my vacation house there. That’s my family. And I think that’s what we’re gonna see is kind of the integration and eventually, you know, I don’t think Zuckerberg spent a few billion on the goggle company for no reason, eventually, you know, the VR that maybe is catching on now, finally, what will be a big part of it? I think we all agree there’s no industry, you know, that makes more sense for it than ours from a standpoint of how expensive purchases and the importance of feeling what it’s like being in a place before? Well,
Uri Vaknin 18:39
especially for pre sales. I mean, VR could be amazing for pre sales. And just people haven’t really, some people have tried it, but it’s too cumbersome right now. And I think if they could figure out how to make it easier.
Justin Cohen 18:52
But already think about the world we live in right now where for the next 18 months, everyone’s gonna find out the true flexibility of their job and their work at home and where you can live and think about how many homes are being bought sight unseen. And think about the fact that Gen Z isn’t going to bat an eyelash about buying homes sight unseen, but that’s where it’s not just going to be presale, ultra luxury, high rise. It may be every home and apartment that you can go experience that way. Because people it’s going to be normal to make the decision sight unseen because technology is going to allow it to be so comfortable.
Shahn Douglas 19:26
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Uri Vaknin 20:18
So a couple of questions. So we talked about the sales funnel. And we talked about artificial intelligence. And we talked about targeting people who are in the sales funnel. And so I have a question about that. But then, but I also want to ask is a really big question for a firm like you is accountability. And, you know, we get these great reports from you, to show us like how great everything that you’re doing is, and how much everything costs us. So I know the two very different questions. But before we wrap up this podcast, I really want to touch on those things. Because I think they’re really important, because we don’t want to waste that we want to spend our dollars most efficiently, correct?
Justin Cohen 21:03
No, it is a great, it’s a great theme and a great topic. And you know, as I look at the clock and recognize you’re right, our minutes are coming to an end, because I have to go to a skating lesson for little children soon, you know, at the cornerstone of when we started our agency in 2009. And really the, you know, the founding of my career, you know, in college, and before, it’s all about data, it’s all about analytics. It’s all about reporting, you know, my concentration and undergrad was real estate finance, you know, data is the key to the whole thing. And the reason I became the type of marketer I am in digital, as you call it, the like I said, Now we just look at it as marketing, you know, digital resonated so much is because there’s a scorecard, I can tell you that Nielsen said, so many people watch my show, I could tell you that x 1000, a million people went by our billboard, and those are great things, but they have very little to do with how many people are actually walking in calling, buying condos, homes or anything else. So you know, at the cornerstone of what we’ve done since day one at the agency is reporting and analytics, understanding and helping our clients understand the difference between what Facebook says is happening. And what Google says is happening, helping people understand that there is a reality and there’s always going to be a little bit of opacity. You know, nothing is a perfect, perfect science. And they’re going to be categories that we can’t track. But by and large, we can tell you what we spend for a lead the quality of a lead the source of a lead, and we could back in 2006. That’s why, you know, in 2006, we got 1% of the budget and TV got 99%. And I’m simplifying. And nowadays, it’s closer to the other way around and digital gets it because we can track it. And I don’t put ads in front of the wrong people, we put them in front of the right people. So you know if there is certainly a word to the wise, and you know, we’ve talked about people who are bootstrapping on their own and picking one channel, versus you know, multi million dollar funded, you know, developments. Holding to account those that are reporting on how you spend is the key. And it is unfortunately very common for marketers to pull the wool over people’s eyes point to fluffy numbers have either falsified or somewhat legitimate but manipulated numbers showing fantastic week over week or month over month or year over year to distract you, you know, in the end, you know, your business is going to succeed if your marketing is working. And if you have not accurate data, and your marketing isn’t working. Or if you have, you know, accurate data that’s showing that your marketing isn’t working, that’s opportunity to jump in and change something, I will say that if there is an investment that needs to be made, it’s for someone that gets the data on the team. You know, whether it’s a salesperson, whether it’s somebody’s nephew, who happens to be really, really smart, or otherwise, you got to be able to interpret the data. And if the data you’re getting from your agency doesn’t make sense, then it’s probably just that, you know, in 2021, with the world of Tableau and Google Data Studio, I can report on anything to the CEO of any client company we have, and to any marketing coordinator just as efficiently because all of the data lives in that ethereal cloud up there. And all my team has to do is carve it into whatever pretty version they need. And then send a real time report to someone that they can hit refresh on anytime they’d like on their phone. So you know, we live in a world where everything should be driven by data, heart is important. But if I have a client who says my persona is this, this is who it needs to be. And if the client says that’s how you’re going to start the marketing, quote, we’ll play that game. But if three months in leads are coming and things aren’t selling, we’re gonna let the data show that quiet, who the persona is.
Uri Vaknin 24:36
Well, let’s talk let’s talk about how that we mean. You know, for me, it was like, very enlightening when we sat through our first real report with you guys, except for all the crazy acronyms you use, and I needed an explanation. But one of the things I learned is the amount of impressions that are served, which you know, is great, but it really depends on what the percentage of people who then click through Through from your impression, and then the amount of time that they spend on whether they go to the website. And then from the website, how many pages they drill down to, and how much time they spend on it. And then if they fill out a submission form, and if, like at one point, like you serve all these impressions, but we don’t have people clicking through, we then know on our side that our messaging is incorrect, or not enticing or intriguing, or whatever. Or if they do go click through, but then don’t go any farther. We’ve also learned something else, that maybe there’s the wrong audience, or Furthermore, like the deeper message that we’re trying to get across, or something is missing. And so that’s what I really love about these reports, because you can understand at every level of the interaction with the consumer, whether you’re succeeding or failing,
Justin Cohen 26:01
yeah, what you talk through is certainly you know, that journey, we talked about how we first you know, interact with or sniff someone out, and then ideally get them to turn into a lead. And what reports do is they allow you to nurture that process, right, you can care for each of those touch points, whether it’s evolving messaging, evolving a landing page, changing the automatic email people get, once they sit there, all these things that we do. And in the end, of course, you keep evolving, because if you don’t, somebody is going to beat you. I mean, that’s the whole difference between digital marketing and marketing before is that now we’re in a world where we’re accountable to evolve and continue to make things better, if a home builder is selling the same exact product that they were 10 years ago, without going with to Shahn’s point, this year’s pantones have the right gray and yellow, it’s just not gonna work. Because people want this year as colors not 10 years ago, colors in the same applies with the offer that we’re putting forth, if we have an offer, with the you know, the call to action on our ad, the thing that we want people to touch to take the action, all that stuff has to evolve. You know, in the end, you know, talk about, you know, REQ, as I kind of wrap that thought, you know, our job at REQ is to help our clients who are by and large businesses, certainly some nonprofits and some government entities, but you know, by and large businesses, it’s to help them sustain and grow, you know, as an advertising agency, as a marketing agency, as a PR agency, as a digital agency, as all of those things. You do that by evolving. You know, in today’s world, if products don’t evolve, if services don’t evolve, you know, we could do 10 podcasts, right on the evolution of services in Vegas, coming out of a pandemic, to see what Vegas is going to be. So as an agency, that’s our job, you know, to evolve the offers the tactics, the strategies, think about that Tik Tok thing that’s real, that’s less than 12 months ago, that that evolution happened there. And it’s less than 18 months before they were on anyone’s radar, till they were accepting money from every casino that wanted to advertise. It’s all about the evolution of tactics and channels and styles. Because people are evolving way faster than they’re used to. Right. You know, I’ve known you guys for a little while and seeing the evolution from you know, ski God to man down and hopefully the evolution back to ski God. You know, that’s, that’s part of how it works. We have to have our offerings and our products do that, think about the not unit, wonderful condominium homes that you have evolve and evolve and evolve, because they’re not going to sell if you try to sell them the way you did four years ago. People want different things now. So that’s kind of that key takeaway. You got to keep changing. That’s what REQ does for our clients. You know, we’re certainly here to help advice is always free. If anyone wants to talk, you know, certainly reach out through the podcast, and we’d be happy to help connect. We work with pretty much every major vertical out there. Our biggest clients include the likes of you know, Amazon and MasterCard. But we work with really wonderful little international nonprofits and all sorts of other great things too. So in addition to our awesome real estate clientele, we love helping all sorts of types of companies, but real estate’s kind of in that sweet spot, because like we talked about even for years before I started the agency, selling people invisible space in the sky is something we’ve enjoyed.
Uri Vaknin 29:16
Well, you’ve done it well. And it’s been great having you as a partner in this journey, showing all these condos in Las Vegas, I have truly learned so much from you and your company. And you’ve really taken us to the absolute highest level possible when it comes to what I would call digital marketing, which you just call marketing. And if our listeners wanted to reach out to you or someone in the company would you like to provide them with an email address or a website or something?
Justin Cohen 29:50
Sure, you can find us online at REQ.co or if you didn’t catch my name and this, my email is firstname.lastname@example.org. But the Google works pretty well. So if you go look us up either under my name or REQ, we’re pretty easy to find. I’m in our Vegas office. We’re headquartered out of DC. We’ve got offices in Austin and San Diego and all over the place. So we are around and here to help. We love talking to fun and exciting businesses. And certainly, real estate is a warm one to dive into. So we look forward to any opportunities and hopefully the opportunity to come back on the podcast, maybe bring some other team members and have a fun chat about some different things later in 2021.
Uri Vaknin 30:31
Well, I know we only scratched the surface of everything that we do in digital marketing. And we touched on a lot of topics. But we really wanted this episode to be sort of an introduction on digital marketing for everything from the individual listing agent all the way to the massive condo developer. And hopefully we gave some answers. But obviously there are probably a lot more questions. But that does wrap it up for this episode of the Condo Artist: The Other Side of Real Estate and thank you Justin Cohen, of REQ, for being such a great guest today.
Justin Cohen 31:09
Thank you, Shahn and Uri, It was my pleasure.
Uri Vaknin 31:12
Thank you and we will be back next week.